I need some measurements: non-pedal console body THICKNESS: Gibson, Fender etc

[J D Sauser]

I need y'all's help.
I am designing a new PSG based on the principles of non-pedal steels, with the goal to regain the sound, dynamics and sustain of these guitars. The design will -among other changes- have a free "floating" sound board ("body"). The body will thus not be "braced by a frame and thus again will need to handle the string tension all by itself. So, it won't be a "cabinet" style design like most prevalent on PSGs.

I would appreciate is you could share your console's or console body style (lap which are a "slab" and not like early Rickenbacher B-guitars a body with guitar style neck) THICKNESS (height).
On double/tiple neck on quad guitars, I am mainly interested in TOTAL WOOD thickness of the top (thickest) and the rear (thinnest) section. Most guitars of that style don't have a bolted separate neck, except of a bolt-on fretboard of some kind. I am only interested about the structural wooden thickness.

Thanks a lot in advance!

... JD.

[Michael Kiese]

Aloha JD,

Honestly, in my opinion, string statics is the most important variable in an instruments design...that's where most of the magic occurs in stringed instruments. Body material, thickness, etc all play a role as well, but not as much as string statics.

The next most important variable is pickup design and placement, and matching it appropriately with potentiometer values for volume and tone knobs, and capacitor values for tone knobs.

Every other variable has less impact on sound. Some of those variable have FAR less impact on sound.

That said, I have quite a few steels (look in my signature box), ask me which you want measurements on, and I'll measure it for you.

Enjoy!

[J D Sauser]

I tend to agree Michael. Yet PSGs built since Sho-Bud and Emmons created the conceptual standard we still see today, steel guitar has not sounded like it used to before. Certainly, the changer is a BIG issue, the springs, rod clutter and most of all large radius "bridge" defying all previously known and agreed upon concepts on how a stringed instrument's bridge should be shaped, are huge factors. Pickups, amps and recording approaches, desired tone also affect what we hear. But still. Try to sound like Jerry Byrd on a PSG C6th! That tone, those dynamics are just not there.
Jerry Byrd can be seen and HEARD playing E9th on his Forrest White custom made Fender. Lloyd Green could not get that sound out of his LDG Sho-Bud, and let's not forget... that's an old TV film conversion... imagine how that sounded in the room! Sure, that's Jerry Byrd and probably none of us is "a JB", but let me add this then...: Tom Brumley doing JB... live on stage... on his Rickenbacher B7... his great sounding Anapeg standing idle next to him. Sure... "the Pickup". I have some original 1 1/2" horse shoe pickups... even a pair of 10 stringes... and put them on a "bench trial" PSG... it's not doing the trick, and most of all, it picked up all the "zingy"/"buzzy" stuff from the changer in a very nasty way.

But in this case, I am trying to build somewhat of a hybrid between a non-pedal and a pedal steel.
I need the structural solidity proven non-braced non-pedal steels had.

In other words, my PSG design will have a "plank" soundboard (like a console) which will NOT be "helped" to resist string tension by a frame, like it is the case with most "cabinet" style bodies on PSGs. I also do NOT want to go with the "inverted U"-cabinet style body.

So, I need to know what the thicknesses are of self-sufficient soundboards, like Fender non-pedal Gibson Console Grande etc.

Thanks!... JD.

[Michael Kiese]

Ok, fair enough. When I have some time, I'll take some pictures with a digital caliper showing the measurements of my Stringmaster, Professional, and Custom.

I'm of the opinion that I think the original idea of using the changers to quickly change tuning and keeping it that way is the better way to go.

I noticed that one of the quintessential sounds of PSG is pressing down on the A/B pedals to go from I to IV. PSG players tend to mash 'em down really quick so those changes happen immediately. But when you do a forward slant equivalent, one can really milk that change. Moreso than you can by slowly depressing the A/B pedals. The pedals only have so much of a throw in their range of motion, and you're depressing them with your foot, rather than intricately controlling them with your fingers.

I think the reason why your 10 string Horsehoes picked up a lot of the mechanical "zingy/buzzy" stuff on your "bench trial" PSG is because the horseshoe pickup is quite ingenious in its design. It's a VERY efficient pickup that completely surrounds the strings in a magnetic cloud. So you end up with a very powerful single coil with low amount of copper windings.

So that may be something you may not be able to overcome. A big part of Jerry's sound was using horseshoes, albeit he did have that "manu" double neck 6/7 string that did not have horseshoes.

Jerry just had the touch. I'm sure he could make anything sound great, but he certainly knew what he liked, and did not like.

[Paul Strojan]

I have a Remington D8. The front neck is 1 7/8 inches and the rear neck is 1 1/2 inches.

[J D Sauser]

I have a Remington D8. The front neck is 1 7/8 inches and the rear neck is 1 1/2 inches.

No tuning issues?

Thanks Paul!... J-D.

[Paul Strojan]

No tuning issues. A regular 2x6 should be sufficient. I found this clip of Don Helms playing cold cold heart with a Sho-Bud https://youtu.be/_dXdTAUWM-4?si=QMREHFUuTk7hqB4_; here he is playing the same song with Hank https://youtu.be/-yCQraOX4Bw?si=UdvvMJUxlJ7C3e7J; and here he is on Country’s Family Reunion. https://youtu.be/oRZIVHZrQNQ?t=512&si=E2PCnlTHxbeymyS-.

[George Piburn]

Georgeboards™ for those who don't know is/was a Mainland USA small manufacturing company of both Lap And Consol style non pedal steel guitars. I have instruments in every USA state and over 20 countries worldwide. we stopped counting after 500 or more. Meaning - I've had over 30 years experience in making Solid wood Steel Guitars.

Short answer; Hardwood lumber is sold in what is known as 8/4 raw mill cut . a Thick 2" before any plane-ing or further milling,
Typically an 8/4 plank purchased from a hardwood retailer , comes with 2 sides surfaced (Planed) and 1 or 2 edges straight lined. So unless you have access to a serious wood shop with a Helix planner and various other high end mill tool like a wide belt sander.
You want pre-surfaced hardwood, = 1.75 + 1/16

We never have had any Deflection issues whatsoever, you can even go to a 1.5" thickness without deflection. Woods include American Tulip Poplar - Walnut- KOA - Maple African-Philippines-Honduran Mahogany's to name the main species. All of which take CNC Mill bits and power nicely.

If you plan to add pedals it will add the factors like Cabinet Drop = deflection.

Quick Show and Tell of a few GeorgeBoards™Consoles
Many of these feature our Lindy Fralin co-designed 8 string VintageSpec pickups we created in 1994.

[Bill Sinclair]

John Tipka gives an extensive list of Stringmaster dimensions in this thread:

viewtopic.php?t=223456&hilit=stringmaster+body+thick

Stringmaster bodies do utilize two long threaded rods to bolt the bodies together so it may not meet your "slab build" requirements.

[Tony Oresteen]

Sounds like you are trying to build a Fender 400 or 1000. I don't have one to measure for you, someone here might be able to get you a measurement.

Good luck!

[J D Sauser]

Sounds like you are trying to build a Fender 400 or 1000. I don't have one to measure for you, someone here might be able to get you a measurement.

Good luck!

Sort of!
Those Fender’s bodies were firmly screwed to the frame and thus could not vibrate freely neither did the wooden soundboard have to support the whole tension by itself

I am currently researching other materials besides rock hard maple.


Yeah “good luck”! I need it, Thanks!… JD.

[Jack Hanson]

Would a 22.5" scale Fender Studio Deluxe (basically a Champ with three legs, or a single-pickup Deluxe 6) fit your definition of a console?
I have one buried here somewhere that I'd be happy to dig out and measure if you'd like.

[Lee Rider]

Ross Shafer, in designing and building the updated Sierra pedal steels raised his fretboard off of the body which really helped with sustain and tone.

[J D Sauser]

Would a 22.5" scale Fender Studio Deluxe (basically a Champ with three legs, or a single-pickup Deluxe 6) fit your definition of a console?
I have one buried here somewhere that I'd be happy to dig out and measure if you'd like.

Jack, as soon it’s on legs, yes it becomes a "Console" or "Consolette". Especially when the legs screw into the soundboard (which is the case with Fender and Guayatone copies.

You can A/B yourself:
a) The guitar on your laps
b) The guitar on its legs (especially on a responsive wood floor). IF the floor starts to resonate what you play, that energy is bled down the legs from the strings to "activate" (get the floor to vibrate enough so it moves air to your eardrums), and that energy is subtracted from your stings (from your sustain and dynamics).

You can test that by putting your lap steel on a wooden table or cabinet. Even unplugged it become more audible, because the strings get the cabinet to vibrate.

My concept IS on legs, but vibrating freely like it would sitting on your laps with the most minimal possible "bleeding" to the floor.

Lee, yes to you too!
Moreover his steels’ top "plank" (I don't say "Cabinet" because his top has NO front and/or rear apron) is only attached to the supporting frame at its ends, floating over the frame (leaving a visible gap from the aprons and frame), which gives it some vibration “freedom” but still bleeds vibrating energy thru the frame down the legs into the floor since it's firmly bolted to the frame at the ends.

My design INTENDS to mitigate vibrational restriction & energy bleeding to the max possible. Thus my sound board must be strong enough to handle string tension ALONE, without the help of the frame (typical for PSG designs). The frame will only serve as a “place-holder” for the soundboard (which has the changer with stop-bars, tuner and bridge completely independently from that frame. The frame will also hold all the activating hardware independently of the sound board.

Imagine a “LapSteel” (the sound board) with a changer, tuner and bridge, “served” at playing level on a structure which holds all the activating mechanics.

Evidently, the soundboard needs to be set at a precise longitudinal position in reference to the “frame” and "attached" to it just as much to it so it won’t fall out of it when one flips the whole instrument over yet without limiting it’s vibration-“freedom” while set up in playing position. Not easy but I believe to have come up with some solutions.

Additionally, the keyless instrument is designed with the changer at the nut (left) end and a clean and intonable bridge on the pickup end.
Just like Ross' Sierra, one could take the strung up sound board out (after disengaging the pull rods from the changer) and the guitar would still have the open tuning in place.

I will begin testing various sound board materials with 1 3/4” thick sound boards, and yes, look at it like a Fender single neck lap steel design. In other words, the thickness measured from the bottom to the top where the fretboard is stuck on in one chunk of material. I have traditional RH-Maple some other harder wood with less internal damping and will also try some non-organic material which is on order.

The goal is to create a fully modern playable PSG with the tonal qualities the closest to a non pedal LAP steel.

It’s been a dream of mine for decades now and I have prototyped a raw concept a 1/4 Century ago presented to Maurice Anderson, John Hughey and Tom Brumley during the 2000 Dallas Jamboree.
After that I had to attend to other business and the project wound up boxed up 'till now.

I now have the time and money to pursue this with all added the experience from over 25 years thinking and sketching around it and also modifying existing brand PSG with that goal in mind.

I do NOT seek to open a PSG company. I only want to have the guitar I always wanted for me and a handful of friends and collaborators. If it becomes a success, I could possibly envision pitching it to an existing builder.


… JD.